This content was published: December 8, 2023. Phone numbers, email addresses, and other information may have changed.
Let’s Talk! Autism & the Gender Spectrum, Pt 1
Student Advocates
Transcript
This episode of Let’s Talk! Autism was recorded in the Summer of 2023. Hosted and produced by Amanda Antell. Produced and edited by Carrie Cantrell. Written transcriptions by Carrie Cantrell.
Podcast intro
Amanda: Thank you for listening to the first talks centering around ADHD and autism in the binary non binary communities. As this discussion revealed gender discrimination exists in both communities with their own challenges. Silver and Limes touched on gender gatekeeping expectations society essentially forced on them, and the responses they developed in their journeys, and both their neuro divergence and discovering their gender identities. But my own experience with my autism diagnosis empowered me. It confirmed there was nothing wrong with me and I had nothing to be ashamed of. I just would have known that sooner had I been born with a penis. The main takeaway I want the audience to have from this conversation is to remember that someone else’s identity does not interfere with their own. And by respecting their pronouns, you show that you’re taking them seriously and respect them as a person. I hope you tune in next time for the next talk on autism and ADHD in binary and non binary communities.
Introductions
Amanda: First, thank you very much, Limes and Silver, for joining me today. And I look forward to hearing your stories and what you say about our questions today.
Silver: My name is Silver. I use they/them pronouns. My major is in Russian and probably also psychology. I’ve been a stripper for ten years.
I’m also a tattoo artist. I have ADHD and autism. I was diagnosed with ADHD, But I’m still trying to get the autism diagnosis.
Limes: I’m Limes. I’m currently a full-time student. I’ve been a dishwasher and a cook for a very long time and decided to go back to school. I was officially diagnosed with ADHD probably over a decade ago now,? never officially? diagnosed with autism, but it does run in my family. And my dad, who’s a mental health professional, is like, I can’t diagnose you, but there’s a good chance that you’re on the spectrum yourself.
So…
Amanda: Thank you. And my name is Amanda. I’m a student and just transferred to Oregon State, but I’m not moving to Corvallis. I’m finishing an animal science degree and will apply to vet school next year. And I was diagnosed at 31, so just very recently. It’s been sad because it’s like, I realized just how much I kind of missed out on a potentially good childhood or at least a childhood where people understood me a lot more. Still, because I was considered too high functioning at the time, both psychologists did not want to diagnose me because, at the time it was just thought that autism just did not happen in women and people raised as women.
So, my poor mother took me to three different experts with no success. They just said we don’t want to put a label on her, or she’ll grow out of it, both of which are the worst possible things to say to a parent with a child with ADHD or autism.
Autism Diagnosis & Gender Prejudice
So on to the next question, how would you say that you’re assigned at-birth gender influenced your autism slash ADHD assessment process?
Silver: I had the same problem where it was like, you are a girl, and that means you can’t have ADHD or autism, you’re just weird, you’re just wild, and your parents need to rein you in. It’s cool now that people are accepting. AFABs can also have both of these things. I got diagnosed with ADHD when I went to the doctor for something else, and she was like, wait a second, all these things are happening. And what if I think you fit the profile for having ADHD? Let’s try ADHD meds on you, and we’re going to diagnose you with this. But I always thought I was more autistic than ADHD.
Limes: I mean, for me, it happened so long ago, it was sixth grade. And it was just a case of “My dad took me to the doctor and was like, this kid won’t do their homework and won’t sit still and will not shut up about cars if you get them going.” And they’re like, “All right, here’s Concerta. Call it a day.” But , there’s no real input on that because it was so long ago.
Amanda: So for me, like I mentioned, my mom did take me to several different experts and they wanted to diagnose me, I think, back in the day because I had a lot of really prominent signs of autism. I was very high functioning, and I met my developmental milestones, at least the ones that were established at the time by the APA, the American Psychological Association, but I would have such intense focuses, especially for animals.
I would not shut up about animals, in fact, I feel bad for anyone who gets into a conversation with me about animals because I will not stop talking. I would also wander off if I was bored. I would literally find anything else to do and I would just take social situations a lot differently than most people. A lot of people who would be left out of a conversation or left out of a social group would feel pretty bad and I, on the other hand, would just be like, “Okay, there’s no reason for me to be here. So, I’m just going to find something else to do.” And my mom knew I was very different. She didn’t think I was disabled or anything, but she did think I was very different. And she was just desperate to find an answer. And when three different experts said, “No, there’s nothing wrong with her. You just have to make her normal,” she went with it. And my mom did her best. I’m not saying that she was a bad mom. She did her best with the situation she was given. So that’s why I would definitely say that my gender didn’t influence that. Because again, it was thought for the longest time that autism and ADHD were just a boy thing.
And I’ve touched on this in other talks before, but it was specifically white boys for the longest time, and it’s just been recent that studies have found that this is also happening in Hispanic and black communities and other and other groups and ethnicities as well.
Which to me would be obvious, because it’s a neurological condition, but science is sometimes slow.
Being Gender-Diverse Today, and ASD or ADHD
So how would you say your gender identity influences your autism and ADHD? Do you feel that people take your condition more or less seriously? because of your gender identity?
Limes: I mean I’m assigned, male at birth, fairly male presenting, or masc presenting, I should say. I think, for me, it definitely just gets taken as like, “yep, that’s it.” There’s no real question. I’m like, “I’m on the autism spectrum,”and they’re [the doctors are] like, “Yep, that makes sense. I get that.” So , I definitely think that there’s definitely, like, a masc-presenting or assigned male at birth privilege with that, that people just accept it, that that’s just what I am.
Silver: I think it’s another one of those things that some people are really, “Oh, of course you are.” And other people are like, “Are you sure you’re not just trying to be special? Because, like, you’re, oh, Blonde white girl and you are boring and normal and you just want to be special.” Like, gaslight me I guess society and their gaslighting. But also when I found out later on that it’s really common for non-binary folks to be ADHD and Autistic, I was like, “Wait a second, maybe that makes more sense that I’m non-binary , than cis.”
But I had a thought about the ADHD thing too. Like it was so easy for me to accept that Autism was not a boy-only thing, but it was harder for me to accept that ADHD was going to pertain to me at all.? I think about how I have to leave all my cupboards open in order to know what’s in there, or I can’t put any groceries inside the drawers in the fridge, otherwise I’ll forget about them, or, or like, I have to keep a schedule written in a handwritten calendar, otherwise I have no idea what it is that I’m doing.
It was, oh, okay, that’s very ADHD. I forgot that that was a thing that I deal with. It’s still a little more like, are you sure I have ADHD? And that might be related to the Adderall issue. Like, you’re just a drug seeker. We’re not going to give this to you, even though it’s like important medication for functioning.
I feel like people take my ADHD more seriously than my autism.
Amanda: Thank you. Thank you both. That was very, that’s very interesting. So, with me, it’s like, I wasn’t diagnosed until 31, and the only reason I did seek diagnosis was because my mother-in-law actually first noticed autistic symptoms in me, because autism ran in her family, and she just immediately saw it with me.
So, I don’t think I’ve ever been very good at masking based on that. Like I’ve just never had a high tolerance for social situations. And people would say I miss social cues. But to be honest, whether I miss them or not, I just didn’t care. I was just really indifferent to them a lot of times. A lot of times I was just so upset and bored.
I was just kind of done with the situation anyways. And I was so used to being yelled at and blamed for situations that it’s like, you know what, if I’m going to get in trouble for this anyways, I’m going to at least be somewhat in control. I’m not exactly the best for getting along with, in normal social situations, but I guess that’s just my coping mechanism.
But once I was diagnosed and I started disclosing to my instructors regularly, people really didn’t have any trouble believing that. They were like my mom and my sister who didn’t have any trouble believing it. And they had a lot of questions about autism and they’re continuing to learn about it.
So that’s been a really good experience. I, unfortunately, had a really bad experience with a professor at Oregon State recently where I had to drop his course because he was just so ableist towards my autism. It was literally a month-long battle trying to argue for flexible attendance with this guy trying to explain my autism and how it contributes to my sleep disorder and driving anxiety that he just didn’t take any of it seriously.
So, I just dropped the course because I just knew it was going to be a terrible experience with this guy. So, it’s been a mixed bag for the most part with me, but I would say it’s been either neutral or positive other than this unfortunate professor and me discovering how ableist DAS can be.
Autism and Medical Health Practitioners: Barriers
Which, by the way, is an upcoming topic if either of you are interested. So, upon receiving your autism or ADHD diagnosis, or if you’re currently on your diagnostic journey, which I don’t remember if either of you are or not, so I apologize. I’m just reading off the questions. Would you say that your assigned gender at birth or your gender identity influenced how doctors, psychiatrists, and other professionals have treated you?
Silver: Oh my god, doctors are the fucking worst. Like the medical gaslighting stuff, like you come in and go, hey, I have a problem, and they’re like, everyone has to deal with that, get over it, it can’t be that bad. Guys, you’re a professional and your job is to help me, can you like, knock it off?
It’s, it’s always made me really like, I don’t want to go to the fucking doctor. Like, not only are doctors expensive, but they like to shame you for coming in, or they shame me for coming in. I ended up with that nice doctor who actually listened, and was like, I think you have ADHD because I had to quit from a different doctor who was like, why do you want to be a tattoo artist?
Like, you should laser off all your tattoos and be a model or like, what’s in those? There’s lots of heavy metals in those, in the tattoo inks and, everybody has to drive an hour each way to get to work. You should just deal with it. Oh, take this pill and get out. She gave me Prozac which I had an allergic reaction to and, I mean, I have no way of knowing if it would be different if I was born with a dick But based on everything I’ve read about what other people deal with I think it would be different and I think they’d be more inclined to listen to me if I didn’t have titties. As far as the diagnostic journey of autism, at this point, I’m 32 now and my mom died last year, and they keep saying, well, we need to interview your family and people who knew you growing up. And I’m like, those people keep dying. Like, how are you going to? Why do you even need them to help with this diagnosis process? What if they all die before you, like, get with the program?
Well, it probably wouldn’t have been different if I had been born assigned male because it was the 90s and they didn’t want to diagnose kids at that time in my area. Like, my parents were very, “we don’t want to”. With Amanda, it was the doctors.
In my case, it was my parents. Like, we don’t want to give you a label that other people are going to bully you over. And it’s like, oh, they gave me a bunch of their own labels that they bullied me over. I don’t think diagnosing me with anything was going to make it worse.
Limes:For me, that’s a non-issue because I just don’t go to the doctor, out of anxiety and fear and all that. So it’s, it’s been well over a decade since I’ve even been to the doctor. My partner, though, is assigned female at birth, and very much so on the ADHD scale, and I remember it was a really big hassle for them to even, like, get taken seriously and get medication in the first place, even though every single sign was, like, they have really bad ADHD, like, really bad, it’s screaming at you, and the doctors were just like “oh well.”
“You’ve had, like, an addiction issue in the past, so we don’t want to give you this, we don’t want to give you that, we can’t give you this, and then, like, the second they got on ADHD medication, it was like night and day. They were just like, “yep, I can focus, I can do stuff, I know what’s in the cabinet, I can know what’s in the bottom drawer of the fridge.” I just noticed them going through that was just a huge hassle, and, I mean, not that I remember a lot of it, but for me getting on ADHD meds, I think it was like one appointment and I was probably 12.
So, they’re just like, “yep, this kid has ADHD. Off you go.”
Silver: I want to add also, like, going to the doctor, even after I’ve been, like, coming out as non-binary and changing all my medical info on all the paperwork, like, don’t call me this. X marks the spot on my license and everything and like they don’t read my paperwork. Like, “Oh you, you’re so tiny and cute we’re just going to say her to you all day.” Like, can you not? I don’t want to go to the doctor if you’re going to do that to me,
Amanda: Thank you both.
And by the way, Silver, your tattoos are awesome. Screw whoever said that to you and I don’t know what they’re talking about heavy metals. Like as far as I know tattoos are just dyed skin. Sorry, that made no sense. Like, medically speaking, that makes no sense, just so you know. Like, I don’t know who told you that, but I would really highly recommend filing a complaint if it’s still possible.
So, for my diagnostic journey, like I said, I wasn’t diagnosed until I was 31. And after doing so much research on autism, especially the preliminary studies, I know for a fact that if I had been born male, or at least like the second half, the secondary sexual characteristics, like the penis and the lack of adipose tissue on the breast. I promise you I would have been diagnosed as autistic way, way back in my childhood, probably before I was in kindergarten. In fact, my mom first suspected something was up with me because I was being assessed before kindergarten by this school psychologist. I don’t even know if he was an actual psychologist.
Probably not, because it’s a public elementary school. I don’t know what this guy’s job was or why he was assessing me, but suffice to say, I didn’t like him and apparently, I just refused to participate in the assessment and he point-blank told my mom I would never learn to read. I don’t know why he said that.
Anyway, suffice it to say my mom was not going to trust the school system with my mental health or give me labels, obviously, so she took me to real experts. Who weren’t that much help, but they definitely told her that I was going to learn to read, like, that part was bullshit. So, it’s very sad that for mine and silver’s case, because I definitely agree with them that we definitely would have been taken more seriously if we had been presented male or presenting male.
Sorry, but I also don’t think it’s a guarantee because I’ve also met people who are in positions of authority in educational systems. They have no mental health training, and they literally typecast people who they think have ADHD and decide whether or not they are worthy of assessment.
And no, I’m not kidding. This is actually happening at a university right now, and I’m going to file a complaint in the next few months about that because that is not good.
How Gender Intersects with Neurodivergence Experience
So how would you say your autism or ADHD intersects with your gender identity? And I know that’s kind of a weird question. Would you say that your autism and ADHD makes you more in touch with your gender identity or makes it more difficult?
Limes: I definitely think being on the autism spectrum really helped with the gender identity thing because the second I heard that being nonbinary was even an option, it was just kind of like a light bulb went off in my head.
I was like, wait, you can, you can just not be a boy. You can just not be a girl. You know, for me, it’s just always been like, I’m just a human being. I don’t really want to fall into either sort of gender role or presentation or anything like that. Like, I like being pretty. It was definitely just a case of like, oh, people say you can be this. I definitely think that being on the spectrum really just helped because I just understand that I’m a person and that’s pretty much it.
Silver: The autistic need to ask why, like, why do I have to be a girl? Why do I have to be a boy? Like, I also had that light bulb moment when I found out nonbinary was a thing and it was allowed. I mean, Things don’t have to be allowed for me to do them, but, like, that it was an option at all. The boys in school were so mean and awful and the girls in school were so mean and awful and I didn’t like the little box that Girls had to be in to be accepted. And I didn’t like the little box that boys had to be in to be accepted.
I was so into so many things from both boxes, finding out that that was really common like it was a lot of internet reading articles and seeing other people’s posts online about their experiences. Like the autistic need desk. Why? Why this? Why do we have to do that? It was, oh, wait.? This is normal for ADHD and autistic folk, and so I’m not less of a person because I don’t want to be a girl and I also don’t want to be a boy.
I’m really, really both. Like, why not both? Why only have one partner? Why only have one dog? Why only live in one spot? I’ve never wanted to settle anywhere. Like, I have lived in my car for seven years. I have an apartment now. But how would I say it contributed to being more in touch?
The ADHD thing definitely helped me accept that non-binary is true for me. And I also think, like, I’m just silly Silver, I’m just a person. Why does it have to be about gender, right?
Amanda: So for me, like I said, I definitely would have been diagnosed had I been born male, and as for my gender identity, the more I think about this, the more, I honestly don’t have a good answer for this because I’ve always been really detached from the fact that I’m female, that I’m cis female, like, I don’t hate it, but I don’t really care that I am, if that makes sense.
Because I’ve taken so many biology and anatomy and physiology classes at this point I feel like my view on gender is very different as well. I just see it as very utilitarian. It’s just that I happen to have enough biomarkers from the double X chromosome that I have breasts and a vagina.
And I’ve never thought about it beyond that. And I’ve never thought about secondary characteristics of other people beyond that. So, for me, it’s beyond the autism thing and ADHD thing. Yes, it makes total sense for autistic people and ADHD people to be non-binary because we’re able to detach from typical societal rules.
At least, that’s my take on it. And the fact that nonbinary is becoming more normalized, or at least more well-known because of social media, and I think, like, TB and stuff like that, I feel like that’s also why that’s a contributing factor–the fact that autistic people and ADHD people and other neurodivergent communities are becoming aware of that option.
So I believe that’s a contributing factor anyway. It’s kind of a shame that gender is, like, in these two boxes, as Silver put it, because really, that’s just not true on the biological level, it just isn’t. In fact, it’s actually a lot easier for people to self-identify. I could go into, like, a whole podcast about explaining how gender actually develops on the cellular level, but I feel like that’d be the world’s most boring podcast, to be honest.
Imposter Syndrome in Neurodivergence Communities
Have you ever questioned your autistic or ADHD needs or sensitivity due to rejection dysphoria, or imposter syndrome, or have you ever experienced either of these due to your gender identity or any other part of your identity? If so, why?
Limes: I’ve definitely experienced imposter syndrome. I’m pretty social, and everything in TV and media, which is why I kind of learned how to “people”, always shows the autistic kid as the weird, lone kid who’s not good at talking to people, and I’ve definitely experienced a lot of the imposter syndrome of like, well, I can be social, I can be extroverted, I can go to parties.
And it was funny to me, I had a partner who is like officially diagnosed autistic. And I was like, I’m worried I might not be. I’m worried that it’s just in my head. And it’s just something I made up to cope with being weird, and I got the mildly patronizing but meant from affection.
“No, honey, you’re autistic. I’ve seen you stim out when you see a car you’re excited about. I’ve seen you have a mild meltdown because your socks got wet, and you don’t have any clean socks or fresh socks that are dry and it’s a sensory nightmare.”
I don’t think any of it really came down to gender or gender identity.
Just more media portrayals of autistic people as this one, anti-social loner type person and me not fitting that and having learned from TV how to “people”. And so, if TV says it, well, then this must be like the average person. If I fall outside the average, well, then maybe I’m not what I think I am.
Silver: I absolutely question all these things from the imposter stuff and rejection stuff. But I guess it turns out that being sensitive to that sort of thing is common for ADHD and autism. And yeah, a big part of it is due to gender and how people perceive me like with the medical gaslighting and with the bullying and the shitty family and shitty exes and shitty teachers and stuff.
There’ll be times when, like, I just got a new puppy, and he was the only puppy in the litter with long fluffy hair. And I was thinking like, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God, Oh my God. If they place me with one of the short haired ones, it’s going to be a sensory nightmare. And I might not be able to handle having this dog.
It’s like, Oh, that’s a thing. So, this is very textbook ADHD and autism. And like, I’ve been wearing socks constantly because I’m going to teach this puppy not to bite. Right. First, she’s got to bite my feet, and it’s like, I can’t handle that.
But if the socks come, if they’re short socks, I get my ankle, then that’s a sensory nightmare, too. And if I’ve got the wind touching my ankle between my pant leg and the sock, it’s like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then, Oh, okay. Maybe I’m not an imposter. This is my experience. This is happening to me, and this is a symptom, I guess.
So, it’s harder with other people. Like, if I’m around other people then they’re going to be questioning me a lot and denying me a lot. And I get more “Are you sure? Are you sure about it?” But alone, I have less of that when I’m by myself.
Amanda: Thank you. And I don’t know if it makes you feel any better, Silver, the whole anklet sock thing. I hate those. I hate the whole thing, my feet get cold so easily. And it’s like the idea of my ankles being exposed to wind is just a nightmare. Like I still have to wear foot warmers from Costco when I go out. Because my feet just freeze so bad. So, you’re not alone just so you know.
So, in terms of imposter syndrome, I don’t know, to what both of you said, and I think I mentioned this to Silver in a separate email, but I wouldn’t say I have any experience with imposter syndrome because I just have never really cared about what other people think of me. And I don’t know, I wouldn’t say that’s a self-confidence or arrogance issue.
I’ve always had a very strong sense of self, like, this is who I am, this is what I’m experiencing. How would anyone else know that? Like, that’s just always been a part of me. And it frustrated my mom a lot, because it’s like, I did not go with the church program in that sense, because I used to think I was like in a madhouse in church. So I feel sad that a lot of people who, who are both, who are autistic have ADHD or non-binary feel imposter syndrome because you are who you are. You don’t need to justify yourself to anyone. You know what you experience. You know what you go through. And to me, someone is trying to say, no, you’re too sensitive.
No, you’re not feeling less. No, this is something else. Yada, yada. To me, that’s telling me that they’re trying to dismiss you. They just don’t have time for you or whatever. Or they’re just so troubled by what you’re experiencing, and they can’t like They can’t just comprehend it in their mind that they just think you’re lying, not lying, or maybe just exaggerating, maybe exaggerating would be a better word, like, for example, like this ableist professor that I told you guys about guarantee who he thinks because I was able to communicate clearly in emails.
He’s like, probably thinking. Oh, she’s probably like she can probably force herself to drive up 90 minutes to my class. My class is important enough to drive 90 minutes twice a week. Yes, my class is primarily lectures, but it’s important enough for her to come down here. She wants to be a vet. She needs it to want it bad enough, which, by the way, is very toxic for any major.
I don’t care what anyone says. And , suffice to say, I avoid people like that. And I’d recommend doing the same.
Silver: If they could just stop like, pushing their viewpoints on us, that’d be great. Like, we have our realities, and it’s not their realities,? they are so insistent on being like, “No, you are this”.
Like, “You have titties, that makes you a girl, and period. Stop trying to fight it.” Like, excuse me, but you don’t know my reality. Can you stop?? That would be nice.
Limes: I was going to say, thinking about it, I think I tend to open with new people with the fact that I’m on the autism spectrum, so that way they don’t get a chance to know me and question it.
So that’s kind of the first thing they learn. And then it’s just embedded. Like, there’s less of a chance for them to say things that question it, which would fuel into the imposter syndrome. So just opening it with it and cementing that, that like, this is Limes. They are autistic. You get a name, gender identity. Autism, and then you get to learn everything else about me once you get the concrete things down. And that way, I don’t have to feel like an imposter.
Silver: The people who’ve been there who watched you grow up. It’s like, they’re all, well, you were like this before. And well, you were a baby when you were born too, but you grew out of that, didn’t you?
And , new people. It’s so much easier. Like when I changed my name to silver, it was a new person. Hi, I’m silver. And they’d be like, that’s a cool name. But old people are like, ah, dead name, dead name, dead name. Like I changed my name when I was in middle school. Can you not?
Amanda: I’m sorry people still do that.
So, in asking this question this actually reminded me of a question I think I proposed to Silver, but it had to do with basically nonbinary people and trans people kind of being in this position where they kind of have to prove they’re either trans enough or a specific, like, male or female enough.
Would you say that also kind of plays into gender dysphoria and imposter syndrome as well?
Limes: I’ve definitely been in the position of having to prove I’m trans enough. Especially before I grew out my hair, I used to have, like, the trendy dude haircut, tapered on the sides, a little more on top, swooped over, I had a big beard.
I’m an amateur mechanic, so I’m usually greasy. At the time, I drove a big ratty pickup truck, and I remember my partner took me to a queer party. And I’m wearing dirty jeans, a camo jacket, and some band shirt, and I just remember just a lot of people side-eyeing me when I walked in, and then that side-eyeing stopped the second I started talking.
And, I definitely had to prove I’m trans enough. I find it’s weirdly not the case with more cis people, especially in some of the communities I’m in. Especially in the car community, they either are just like, “Yep, you’re they/them.” Or they’re like, “No, people are only male or female.”
Basic biology. I had some guy, he was like, “Oh, you’re still being like a middle schooler.” And I’m like, “I’m 30. Dude. I don’t really care what you have to say behind your private profile without a profile picture.” Like, but, it’s weird being in the queer community and feeling a lot like my hobbies and the way I typically present kind of leads me to having to prove I’m queer enough to exist in these spaces because I just, especially then with short hair and a big beard, I just get read as like, probably like, “Oh, this is this queer person’s racist boyfriend.”
Silver: Like as a stripper who likes to wear high heels and long hair and makeup, I get that in the opposite direction too. Like, “I thought strippers were women!”, and I like to date a lot of dudes, like queer dudes and cis dudes and stuff. And so, it’s like, “are you sure you’re not just a straight chick?” Like, no, I’m a gay femboy.
Like, excuse me, can you not like put me in one box? How about that? Because, because there’s a lot of gatekeeping in terms of, like,? the straights and the gays are really, “you can’t be bi, pick one.” And the binary folks are like, “you can’t be both or neither. You have to pick a gender, be a boy or be a girl.”
Like what’s with this? There’s in-between things or all of the above things. Like, there are some people who are agender, like they don’t identify with any gender, and it’s, I had the shitty ex who was a cook at one of the clubs I worked at, sent me this bullshit meme. On the one side, this is Damien. Damien is a trans man. And he goes, I just want to live my life like everyone else. And on the other side, this is Sky. Sky wants to be a trans boy, but she’s just a cis girl who needs to feel special. And it’s like, how dare you? Like that guy over there wants to be like everyone else. Great. More power to him.
This guy over here wants to. Oh, you don’t need dysphoria to be trans. Gender is a feeling like, Great. More power to you too. Like, don’t deny anyone their own reality please and it’s like why does this guy need to fucking push his shit on me and everyone else. Like it’s not cool. Strippers in Portland there’s so many of us who are queer too, and so when bosses and customers are always like “Oh, ladies this, ladies that,” and “the girls this,”. Some of us are trans men and some of us are non-binary, and some of us are cis women and thanks for denying our reality, but for you, sure. At the job, we are playing a role.
So maybe more of us could be counted as ladies when we’re acting, but not outside of that.
Amanda: Thank you. Thank you both for sharing your stories and your perspectives. And again, I’m sorry I sprung that question. I just remember that Silver wanted to talk about that, and I forgot to add it to the questionnaire, and I apologize about that, so I just really wanted to honor that.
And I just feel sad when I hear your stories, because it’s like, I’m so detached from my own gender that I never once felt like I’ve had to prove that I’m female enough to anyone. Again, when I was in middle school, I went through a phase where I just didn’t want to wear anything girly, but that was mainly because I was in an abusive situation at home, and it was my way of being tough.
I was severely bullied at middle school, so I had really no way to escape that. Basically, for me, acting masculine was kind of a shield. I wouldn’t say it was an identity issue with me, but, even then I was never in a position where I had to prove I was female enough, and as an adult now, I feel even less of that. Like I wear dresses and skirts when I want to or when like the weather calls for it but beyond that I don’t really care so the idea of proving you’re trans enough or female or male enough or being forced to, like, have a certain identity for your job or whatever, that’s just BS to me, you are who you are. And again, you experience what you experience, and for the gender identification thing on the biological level, again, it actually disproves conservatives who want to do the binary thing anyways, because no one is truly male or female.
If you look up biomarkers, no one is. So, it’s really a lot easier to let people self-identify anyways, and I don’t get why there’s so much gatekeeping around gender anyways, because what does it matter? Someone’s identity is not going to interfere with someone else’s. So that’s kind of my take on it and why I find gender conversations really confusing in terms of how personal they get.
I try to respect people’s feelings as much as I can, but there’s a point where if it gets too heated, I just have to disengage because I stopped being able to take it seriously if I’m honest. Just because it’s like, okay, “I’m just going to let these people talk. It’s very clearly not going to have anything that no value is going to come out of this.”
Rising Autism Diagnosis in Nonbinary Communities
So again, thank you for sharing your stories. And again, sorry about how sudden that question was. So going on to question seven , are you surprised that the non-binary community has an increased number of people getting autism or ADHD diagnosis? Why or why not, and would you say that this trend makes you more confident in your gender identity?
Silver: I’m not surprised that more people are getting diagnosed like this. Cause it’s like a big duh for me. They’re like the rejection of rigid norms. Why is this the rigid norm? I reject it, I’m not interested in doing it your way. This is stupid. I mean, I guess I am surprised that people are getting diagnosed at all in the way the American medical system sucks, and getting people in is difficult.
It does make me more confident in my own reality. I can doubt myself less. And the only thing that I am surprised about is that people are getting diagnosed at all because of the way the American medical system is.
Limes: I’m also not really surprised, just mainly because, I’m also a polyamorous person, so I date a lot, and I keep meeting people on the autism spectrum who are They/them or non binary or gender fluid.
And that’s more of a case where the more of them I meet the more I kind of, like, half expect it. Like, I’ll meet someone new, and I’ll see “they/them”, and I’ll be like, I bet within 20 messages, we’ll get to the autism spectrum disclosure thing. It is people who don’t get social norms or basically don’t play into those sorts of social norms.
Like, I think that they’d probably have a much easier time accepting that they are non-binary or even finding the concept of that freeing or cool. Again, like both Silver and I had that lightbulb moment of like, wait, you can just be that? And like, if you’ve struggled with social stuff all your life, and then you find out that you can just not do one of the biggest ones,? I’m sure that there’s a really big pull to that. There definitely was for me of like, “I can work on cars and I can wear a dress and fishnets because I look great in those and I’m good at working on cars”. I can do both of those even though one of those is a girl thing and one of those is a guy thing? it’s definitely helped like the confidence in being non binary, the more of them I meet, because it just kind of like builds on the data pool of like, now I’m not just like the only one.
Now there’s more of them. And I’m like, you can’t really debate with more and more of these people. Clearly, it must be a valid thing if there’s so many of them, and I keep meeting them.
Silver: And like, I also work on cars, and I can work on cars in a bikini and high heels at the same time, and I have done that for Only Fans.
Amanda: I was going to say, that actually does sound like an Only Fans thing. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but that actually sounds awesome. It’s kind of theorized the reason why a lot of non-binary people are autistic and ADHD, because we just are mentally able to disengage from social norms, kind of like what Limes said.
And we’re just able, I think we’re actually able to find our identity a lot quicker than neurotypical people because of that. Because we’re bullied, because we’re ostracized, because we’re just constantly put down, we’re forced to adapt and kind of build our own confidence and our own survival mechanisms, our own way.
That’s going to look very differently between all of us, obviously. But because of that, the idea of non-binary is not it’s not strange to us. Like, it’s not surprising. And especially and even before I had all these science classes, the idea of non-binary never bothered me. It’s like, oh, okay, whatever.
Again, it was just someone else’s gender and that had nothing to do with me. So that’s really all I took it as. So, it’s kind of sad. So, I think it’s kind of sad that the non-binary community is kind of treated this way because to me, this is expected. It’s not really anything to freak out about.
Neurodivergence, Gender Spectrum and Social Bullying
At least to me, there’s no reason for drama. About this, would you say that the bullying and like isolation that we go through is also the contributing factor of the non-binary aspect of the growing nonbinary aspect of the autism and ADHD community?
Limes: I wasn’t necessarily bullied. I mean, once I started playing music and spent most of my time in the music wing, everyone there is weird anyway, especially the theater kids.
I don’t think it’s necessarily a coincidence that I finally started being who I am today once I left Connecticut, which is where I grew up. I moved out when I was 24, 25, in 2017. And then, I came out here, I started hanging around more queer people and I suddenly had a chance where I was around people that never knew me back home.
They only knew the person now and then I found out being non-binary is an option and it’s definitely been a big change for the better. And , I think, I definitely think like finally getting to make up my own rules and function in a society because I no longer feel like I have to be the person that all these people knew me as growing up.
I definitely think that contributed to it. And,? I do kind of have to wonder if a lot of people who are queer who maybe grow up in smaller communities that aren’t as queer friendly. Grow up, get out of wherever they grew up in and move to the city or a place like that, where all of a sudden they can be around queer people.
I wonder if that tendency of queer people to have to leave their homes that they grew up in might also kind of help with that because they also get to go through the journey of well now around people who don’t question me constantly, now I can make my own rules. Now I can figure out that maybe I’m not just weird.
Maybe I’m on the autism spectrum. Maybe I’m not, just this or that. Maybe I actually have ADHD and I can go to the doctor and, I don’t know, try to get diagnosed, but I can try to figure that out for myself because now I’m not around small-town USA where every third billboard is for Jesus.
Amanda: Sorry that that one made me laugh because my mom is from a small coastal town in Oregon and that just describes it. I was bullied incredibly like Silver was too. Like, it got so bad in middle school that I, to this day, have a lot of trouble connecting with people and making friends because I’m just worried, I’ll be considered a bother, or I’m just not wanted in a situation.
It’s easier for me to connect in work situations like this because it’s like I have a functional reason to be there. No one can delegitimize my purpose of being there. So, the people who have reached out to me beyond work, I’m really grateful they did, because, like, I just wouldn’t have had the courage to do it, because I would be too afraid of bothering them.
So, it doesn’t really play into my gender identity. It’s just that for whatever reason, I was made a target in middle school and was a loner, and I was just bullied incessantly, and I lost a lot of trust in adults because it would happen directly in front of teachers, and they wouldn’t do anything.
And my mom for a while was trying to get me to log bullying incidents in like a notebook or something, and I just… Several things are wrong with that to me on an egg as an adult. I get why she was telling me to do that. But there are several issues with that. For one thing, even if I did log them, there’s no it’s still my word against theirs.
And the likelihood is I’m not going to be believed. Second off, why is it my responsibility to note down my own torture? And that’s like just a serious executive functioning issue. I’m already so exhausted trying to focus on school. I’m trying to block out what’s going on at home. You’re asking me to put in extra effort and you’re telling me to take responsibility for my own bullying.
Are you fucking kidding me? Like, no, and that’s kind of like this victim blaming bullshit to me that goes on in society big time and why we, to me, a lot of people really don’t trust authoritative systems when they’re adults, not that anyone should or shouldn’t. To me, stuff like that plays a huge contributing factor into how autistic people and ADHD people see society.
And it’s like situations like that. It’s like, I never really developed issues with my identity or imposter syndrome, but I just started rejecting a lot of social norms and rules because it’s like, if I’m not getting anything out of this… I’m trying to follow the rules here, but I’m not getting anything out of this.
What is in this for me? Why am I doing this? So, it’s like, I’m just going to do things my way. If I’m going to get tortured and bullied anyways, if I’m going to be blamed for situations anyways, I’m going to at least have partial control of myself. Partial control here. It worked. Sometimes it works.
It has not worked other times, but I got to say, every time I confront someone who is being a dick to me, I never feel more powerful. Like, it’s just a really empowering feeling confronting someone who is being a dick to you. I know that sounds really strange, but it’s like, it’s not really even about winning or losing to me in those fights or battles, it’s just about letting them know I’m not afraid of them and I will take them down with me if I have to.
Silver: I was going to say, like, some of the people who bullied me, they really enjoyed it when I fought back. They, like, they got a kick out of it for some reason, and so, like, when I would, like, they’d poke me and poke me and poke me and pull my hair and touch me and stuff, and so I would, like, bite them or scratch them.
They would just get so excited, and then I’d be the one that gets in trouble. And teachers would also, like see that it’d be in front of them, and they would go, “Oh no, Silver is the one that needs to be punished. Not that boy. Cause boys will be boys and you should just put up with it when they touch you and poke you and pull your hair.”
And I’m like, “No, that’s not okay. “
Amanda: I always feel bad when I start these podcasts because I’m just so stiff and nervous and I start dissociating a bit and I’m like, oh crap, did I say the wrong thing? Oh crap. Did I misgender someone? Oh crap. Like I did that to Silver the first time they did a podcast with me and I’m very sorry about that, but it’s like I was just dissociated so much, and I was so nervous that it’s like I got it wrong. So, I think in the last few podcasts, I kind of focused more on autism and ADHD and people raised as women and cis women.
Growing Acceptance of Non Binary Identity in Health Communities
And even with the growing acceptance of autism and ADHD in women and people raised as women, would you say that there were still a lot of prejudices in the professional mental health community towards the non-binary community or any other community outside of heterosexual, cis male or male or female?
The reason I’m bringing this up again is with the growing acceptance of the fact that autism and ADHD can happen in these two groups. Would you say that kind of gives both of you hope for the non-binary community?
Silver: A hundred percent, yes.? Kaiser’s gender pathway place is actually pretty okay,
They’re like, tell me about yourself and then we’ll get you set up with whatever you need. But there are still a lot of prejudices in the professional, mental, and health community. Like with the misgendering and the automatically looking at me and assuming I’m one way. The regular doctors are all, “Oh, you look like a girl, we’re going to call you a girl.”
But my mental health clinic, they’re actually good too. They’re like, that’s their job to be good. So at least they’re better than what I experienced in Olympia.
Limes: . I’m not raised as a woman and don’t present as female. Going back to my partner, getting them diagnosed with ADHD was such a long, long thing, especially in mental health, like they had to go through a bunch of therapists too, just because one of them was just straight up like “this is just woman issues”,? kind of insinuating time of the month stuff. When, no, it’s “I live with this person. It’s not just that, there’s a lot more there.” So, like, I’ve never experienced it personally. I mean, I also don’t go to the doctor, but seeing, my partner who is nonbinary and who is assigned female at birth just going through a lot of that discrimination and whatnot, or prejudice in the mental health community, that just kind of sucked.
I’m really glad that they have the, the mental health team they have now, because they’ve been fantastic, and finally getting them diagnosed and put on medication for ADHD has been a real game changer for them. But I’ve been with them seven years, and, like, that’s been since last year and they’ve had the issues all along.
So, it’s, it’s definitely still there. I do have hope for the future that like, the more and more people that are non-binary autistic, and , the more and more people get diagnosed, I do have hope that like, at some point, the numbers [00:46:00] are just going to be too big for even like the most, , the most annoying person in the mental health community to like, ignore.
Like at a certain point, they just can’t deny it, but I’m also like a super glass half full person, so that might just be me being hopeful, but to me, I just think at some point, you can’t ignore it.
Silver: I am worried about all the anti-trans laws being passed, , in terms of being taken seriously and not, belittled by strangers or family or whatever. Hormones and whatnot are really important for feeling okay in your own self and the more people who are denied that the harder it’s going to be for the surrounding people in their communities to accept them for who they actually are, which is a bummer.
Like, you should just be able to say, hi, my name is this and these are my pronouns and people just accept that, call you whatever you want,? we don’t live in that world.
Amanda: The anti-trans laws, like it really sucks that this is happening, and I was kind of debating about bringing them up in these next three conversations because this and the other two conversations are going to pertain to autism and ADHD.
It’s like maybe I should just have a separate podcast for the anti-trans laws in general because I do feel like that’s an important talking point now more than ever. And it really does suck because it goes back to what I said where it’s like conservatives just have this really complete misunderstanding of gender.
They have a lot of insecurities about their own identity, which is, to me, why they attack the trans community. I don’t know, it’s like I always take my experience with people like that. It has a lot to do with rejection and self-hatred. And my, and I have very little sympathy in situations like that.
Because it’s like, just because you don’t know yourself and you’re insecure, and you’re like this insecure little person, that doesn’t mean you have the right to attack anyone else. Just seek your own therapy and leave other people alone. Like, seriously, no one wants to hear what you have to say about that anyways, especially the community members.
So that really sucks, and I definitely agree that there was a lot of prejudice and the reason I asked this question, even though I know there’s a lot of prejudice is because it’s just about shedding light on the fact that there is. It’s one of those things and that’s why I ask questions the way I do in these podcast recordings.
Yes, I’m aware that there is prejudice a lot of the time, but it’s just about saying it out loud and in a public setting so people can’t ignore it as easily. Because I don’t know. At least to me that’s part of me that’s important. Just drawing attention to the disparity, and even as a CIS woman, it’s like I still get kind of mistreated. I definitely have had doctors in the past just dismiss me outright because I’ve had really painful periods in the past, and it’s like I was really worried about Cystic fibrosis or endometriosis and just stuff like that. And I’m not particularly worried about having kids, but it’s like, for me, it’s just that painful physical sensation. It’s gone to the point where I considered at one point kind of talking to someone about a hysterectomy, but it’s like, I kind of dismissed it because I’m at the age where I’m still considered fertile and they’re going to try to push me to have kids still. So, it’s like, it’s just an exhausting conversation.
And thankfully, my periods aren’t as, as painful as before. So, it’s like, I’m still contending with monthly pain, but it’s like, I’m still choosing monthly pain over having this exhausting conversation with this doctor. So, believe me, I totally agree. Prejudice is still in the medical community, even towards us women, but I can only imagine how bad it is for non-binary community members.
Silver: I just remembered that a lot of times AFABs would have like with autism and ADHD will have like eating disorders and that’ll be related to the autism and stuff and I also have been struggling with eating disorders since I was a teen and that’s another one of the things that like the mental health community will be like in the early 2000s or whatever like oh well you just need to not worry about what other people think of you and it’s like you Can you maybe relate this to the potential that I have autism?
And it’s not just like the, the world in the U S like hating on women, unless they’re tiny, like, , it’s like, you can’t possibly game have one of these boy disorders you’re just concerned about your body image.
What do you want the public to know about you?
Amanda: So, the last question I have for this interview is what do you want the public to know about yourself as a non-binary person and your autism or ADHD?
Limes: I just want people to see me as a person, preferably a pretty person because that makes me feel very happy when they say that. But, as far as nonbinary, like, I’m just a person. I’m just me. With autism specifically, I want people to know that like, you can always ask me for clarification.
If you think I’m being rude, I promise I’m not trying to be, , I might word things bluntly, but that’s because that’s the most efficient way to say what I’m trying to say. , and then as far as like, Both combined, I just want people to have the same level of like, yep, that’s a thing that’s valid that I had when I discovered it was a thing.
And, maybe I had a little more motivation because I can apply it to me.? I’d like for other people to just be like, they say they are this. It’s not hurting anyone. It’s not causing anyone distress. It’s not doing anything bad. Just accept it. That’s not saying, like, make excuses for me.
Like, I think the biggest, like, non-binary and any other identity is that we can be bad people too. And that’s fine. Well, not fine. You shouldn’t be a bad person.? Just accept people as people. Regular people, people you can criticize, people you can love, people you can accept, people you can hang out with and work on your stupid car with because it’s broken again.
Silver: The autism ADHD thing makes me, like, I just panic more. I’m just, my ears are really sensitive, and my skin is really sensitive, and my eyes are really sensitive. If I were to say this to any normal person, they’d be like, oh, well, you’re just a, it’s not really that bad. You’re just complaining for the sake of complaining.
And, which then relates to, you’re just a girl thing. And then I kind of spiral into, I’m just not going to talk. So what would I want? I want you to know about all of this. Like, it’s real. Everything that I experience in my life is real to me, and please just stop trying to deny my own reality, okay?
I’m not trying to tell you how to live your life unless you ask me. I would love to tell you how to run your life, but nobody actually wants me to do that.
Amanda: Thank you. I don’t know, quite frankly from the binary perspective. There’s not really the public needs to know much about my perspective other than the fact that I am who I am and I’m not going to let you invalidate my experiences and we shouldn’t be invalidating others.
And I don’t know for this, for these three talks specifically when comparing autism and ADHD and the binary nonbinary community, I think the point, I think the point I’m trying to make here is that we just have to have understanding empathy and respect for each other. And I don’t really see why that’s hard.
Silver: A hundred percent. Yes.
Limes: . . I’d agree with that. I can accept other people’s just; I just ask that they just accept me. You don’t even have to like me. Just accept me.
Thank you, Silver.
Amanda: and Limes for joining me today. This was awesome. And I really hope you join me for other podcasts coming up.
Limes: Thank you.
This was really fun. I’d love to do it again.